OOC Thread

just drop them honestly, we can always recruit more members later on

[kouhei] wrote:

just drop them honestly, we can always recruit more members later on

You do understand that I'm the one who has to work and not only find those people but also fit them into an on-going game, correct?

Unfortunately they are unlikely to come back (and I am sure then GenT is gone for good). However, DM is right that it would be difficult to attract new players, as this isn't necessarily the most attractive game.

True. Most people go for the game system they already know rather than having to go through the work of a learning curve.

I have already partially had this discussion with DM, but I don't think most of the house-rules succeed in doing what they intended, and frankly they seem a bit silly.

I'm willing to give them a try. We haven't got into a combat situation yet.

My enthusiasm for the rules is certainly less so than yours.

They don't seem to bad for the most part. He's powered up the game, feat wise, and powered down the magic.

The only thing that messed me up were the skills. My character is a bit messed up skill wise since I didn't get the house rule at first and was too lazy to go back and redo him from scratch :-).

Well considering that with the new rules a mage can get spell perfection at level 3, it's not really true that the magic took that big of a hit. Sure we lose 7-8-9th level spells, but I don't think that's that huge (but what do I know, I like playing magi). The spell point system doesn't really do anything to hinder casters. The casting defensively thing hurts, but most mages shouldn't spend too much time in melee anyways (and in my case I figured out a few ways around it). The increased number of feats throws the normal balance that pathfinder tried to maintain straight out the window (right now my character actually has more feats than levels) as well as taking a major step in undoing most of the balance attempts that were instituted. Mundane combat seemed find until he added the "include your BAB as a dodge bonus to AC" which I think is probably the worst offender. Stat bonuses were also thrown about will-nilly (an untyped +2 in addition to the normal stuff from character advancement). The fact that the monk was replaced was simply offensive. The house feats are ludicrously overpowered. Reactive checks mean that as long as I have ANY skill at roleplaying, I can essentially use my best stat whenever I want to make a save. Corruption, Expertise, Sanity, Wounds, and Karma I don't really mind, they just add another layer of bookkeeping and complexity but at least they provide some additional danger and grittiness. The drop in HP is just plain weird and the use of alternate class features rather than archetypes is ripe for exploitation.

Johnny, we've already have had a discussion concerning how your opinions on these matters are a stark opposite to not only my own but also to what is generally the accepted opinion of the meta concerning d20 games.

And damn it, I hate doing this, but consider them kicked.

We did talk in short about it, that is true. However, I still disagree about certain assumptions made about the disparity between martial classes and casters and that all people would feel the same way about it.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

We did talk in short about it, that is true. However, I still disagree about certain assumptions made about the disparity between martial classes and casters and that all people would feel the same way about it.

Just because you disagree about the disparity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that it hasn't been hammered down to a gold representation over the last 13 years by the fan base. Since no official studies were done on it I don't feel right calling it an empirical result, but the math does prove that there is a significant performance gap between mundane and non-mundane classes (I use those tags instead of "martial" and "caster" because the Cleric and Druid can make very good martial characters and so can other Tier 1s with the right Transmutation magic and application of their other spells).

Just like it proves that the Monk is one of the most un-synergistic and poorly made classes printed. Pathfinder put a band-aid on it, but it didn't really make the Monk that much better. You need two or three different archetypes to even pull that off.

And to reiterate what I said previously: I could give what other people think about the game. The Monk is a great class! Sure it isn't an Archer Fighter with a Mighty Composite Longbow, but people who dismiss it entirely clearly aren't paying attention.

Casters are good: their access to spells gives them tons of multi-faceted usability and versatility, I'm not denying that. But calling the difference between mundane and magic classes a disparity is a huge overstatement and a mistake. There are a lot of ways to counter a caster, as there are with any class, you just have to understand what you are trying to accomplish. For example, a properly built barbarian will be a wizards worst nightmare 9 times out of 10.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

And to reiterate what I said previously: I could give what other people think about the game. The Monk is a great class! Sure it isn't an Archer Fighter with a Mighty Composite Longbow, but people who dismiss it entirely clearly aren't paying attention.

Or you're clearly blind to its multitude of shortcomings.

Quote :

Casters are good: their access to spells gives them tons of multi-faceted usability and versatility, I'm not denying that. But calling the difference between mundane and magic classes a disparity is a huge overstatement and a mistake. There are a lot of ways to counter a caster, as there are with any class, you just have to understand what you are trying to accomplish. For example, a properly built barbarian will be a wizards worst nightmare 9 times out of 10.

See, you can say that, but I can show you dozens of threads that prove you wrong.

Tanuki Tales wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

And to reiterate what I said previously: I could give what other people think about the game. The Monk is a great class! Sure it isn't an Archer Fighter with a Mighty Composite Longbow, but people who dismiss it entirely clearly aren't paying attention.

Or you're clearly blind to its multitude of shortcomings.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B4FiQnqdfX9-nIDhV7FHlq-__R7w_F7YmWKXA6iYY0k/edit
And this guide doesn't really take into account a lot of things that make the monk even better, like Dragon Style. Again, you aren't god among melee classes but you would certainly be better then a lot of people make it sound.

Quote :

Quote :

Casters are good: their access to spells gives them tons of multi-faceted usability and versatility, I'm not denying that. But calling the difference between mundane and magic classes a disparity is a huge overstatement and a mistake. There are a lot of ways to counter a caster, as there are with any class, you just have to understand what you are trying to accomplish. For example, a properly built barbarian will be a wizards worst nightmare 9 times out of 10.

See, you can say that, but I can show you dozens of threads that prove you wrong.

And I can show you an equal amount of threads that make the opposite case, but such is the way of the opinion. But if you really want to get into it then we can start crunching some numbers.

You understand that a class simply having an optimization guide doesn't mean the class is objectively good, right? And that, to my memory, only the Truenamer guide ever didn't paint the class it was about in some positive light.

And I'll bet dollars to donuts the threads you'll show me are misguided.

Tanuki Tales wrote:

You understand that a class simply having an optimization guide doesn't mean the class is objectively good, right? And that, to my memory, only the Truenamer guide ever didn't paint the class it was about in some positive light.

And I'll bet dollars to donuts the threads you'll show me are misguided.

I'm not just putting the optimization guide out there as a point in and of itself. Read it, it makes an excellent case for the monk class.

Now let's make this discussion a little more formal and actually outline our arguments here: I don't think the difference between magic and mundane classes are all that great. Now I am pretty confident that my barbarian build could wreck most magical effects, and so I would ask that you provide an example of a wizards action that I will then try to counter. I feel that is slightly more productive then slinging threads at each other.

The fact Treantmonk lists Flurry of Blows as blue makes me believe he's lost his touch. That's the first un-synergistic thing about the Monk and one of its more glaring flaws. He also has combat maneuvers as blue, which were nerfed between 3.5 and Pathfinder. I mean, I could go on how he's selling the Monk to look good while not talking about why those selling points aren't that great.

I'd need to see this build and the parameters of the thought exercise.

Tanuki Tales wrote:

The fact Treantmonk lists Flurry of Blows as blue makes me believe he's lost his touch. That's the first un-synergistic thing about the Monk and one of its more glaring flaws. He also has combat maneuvers as blue, which were nerfed between 3.5 and Pathfinder. I mean, I could go on how he's selling the Monk to look good while not talking about why those selling points aren't that great.

See now that just doesn't make any sense, Flurry of Blows: I hit a lot of times and do a ton of damage. How is that not blue? Combat Maneuvers: a good second option. It's a good class. Not the best, but they certainly do better then you make it sound.

I'd need to see this build and the parameters of the thought exercise.[/quote]I'll be polite and let you propose the necessary parameters, and then counter from their. After all, the tradition of the duel is that the target makes the choice of weapon and location.

Because you can't use Flurry of Blows with your Fast Movement. You can't charge and use it either. You have to blow an entire full attack action to use the thing when someone with the same feats doesn't. Add on the substandard weapon options for the Monk and the fact you generally don't want someone that fragile in close combat as a stationary target and it adds up to why it isn't blue.

The Monk is a good class if you consider the Fighter a good class. A Monk is a poor little thing when you consider being Tier 3 the hallmark of being a good class.


Fine, I'll set these parameters:

1. The fight takes place in an open air arena that is 500 feet by 500 feet with no particular features beyond that.

2. The combatants are made aware that they're going into this one week in advance and have that week to prepare. They have only general knowledge about their opponent.

3. The combatants begin 60 feet apart from one another.

3. The combatants have normal wealth by level and a 25 point buy.

4. All official Paizo material is usable here. No Third party material or grand fathered material.

5. The universe is assumed to work under strict RAW.



I'll let you decide the level these two are.

Tanuki Tales wrote:

Because you can't use Flurry of Blows with your Fast Movement. You can't charge and use it either. You have to blow an entire full attack action to use the thing when someone with the same feats doesn't. Add on the substandard weapon options for the Monk and the fact you generally don't want someone that fragile in close combat as a stationary target and it adds up to why it isn't blue.

The Monk is a good class if you consider the Fighter a good class. A Monk is a poor little thing when you consider being Tier 3 the hallmark of being a good class.


Fine, I'll set these parameters:

1. The fight takes place in an open air arena that is 500 feet by 500 feet with no particular features beyond that.

2. The combatants are made aware that they're going into this one week in advance and have that week to prepare. They have only general knowledge about their opponent.

3. The combatants begin 60 feet apart from one another.

3. The combatants have normal wealth by level and a 25 point buy.

4. All official Paizo material is usable here. No Third party material or grand fathered material.

5. The universe is assumed to work under strict RAW.



I'll let you decide the level these two are.

For giggles let's choose 15th, you should have a good availability of spells at that point.

Properly played monks don't want to be running around all the time, they either want to 5' step or stand still and flurry. As for weapons, fists (that have scaling damage over levels and can be enchanted as well as enlarged) and shurikens if you REALLY need a back up. Decent selection of feats and damage is 8-10 attacks at lv 20 that each get 1.5x your strength mod as well as all your other damages.

Ready whenever you are DM

We'll do this on Thursday, so we both have a day to prepare. I'll open a separate thread in a new subforum for this.

As per the agreement I will provide general information on my character that I believe you would be able to gain access to without the use of magic abilities (like scrying):

*He is a Barbarian

*He is Human

*He has a mount; the mount is a magical beast

*He has a known dislike for magic-users

Sorry, got a bit distracted by this thing between me and Johnny that's going to happen.

Everyone who's still in the game are on the stairs, correct?